Response to 'expert' views on pesticides & BSE

Response to 'expert' views on pesticides & BSE

These follow up comments on the 'expert' response gives a pretty sad commentary on scientific leadership that all of us treasure so highly....

Chris Gupta

"Science became an educated cadaver of thought, above which congregate expert players. If the encyclopedia of the ignorance of the acknowledged authorities in the history were to be published, it would number many fat volumes. Nothing will interest scientists anymore. They are like oxen which feed of fenced-off pasture."

Prof. Wlodzimierz Sedlak
---------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Mad Cow disease & pesticides (Organophosphate)
Date: 03:05 PM 1/7/2004 -0800
From: "James DeMeo"
To: "Chris Gupta"

The other explanation which nobody wants to consider is, that the entire "slow virus" theory is bogus and scientifically unsupportable -- you get exposed today, but get sick 10 years later, and the claimed virus cannot be demonstrated during the intervening period because it is "hiding". One may as well claim there are demons at work. This false theory of slow viruses underlies AIDS and other bogus medical claims, where they cannot show titres of living virus in sick people, cannot even isolate the virus in pure culture and show it on EM photos, cannot infect and cause symptoms of the disease in laboratory animals, and even have tremendous difficulties to show the "deadly microbe" in any significant titres when they are dying of the symptoms. The best discussion of this, including of the big holes in the "prion" theory of Carleton Gadusek (a convicted pedophile) is found in Peter Duesberg's book "Inventing the AIDS Virus". All those burning cow carcases in the UK, with police and military out to cordon off the countryside -- it all smacked of a social-psychological hysteria, over unproven "contaminants" in animals claimed to have caused deaths in a small number of people nearly a decade after exposure. Koch's postulates and all good science have been thrown out the window on these matters. Of course neurotoxic pesticides make animals and people sick. But to call the symptoms here "downer cow" and over there "mad cow" based upon an unproven microbiological thesis... I call it the "mad veterinarian" or the "mad microbiologist" disease.

James DeMeo, Ph.D.

---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:25:50 +0100
From: dr.b_helthi@t-online.de
Subject: Re: pesticides & BSE-type illnesses

The following, brief analysis of the "response" provided by Dr. Neil Cashman, neil.cashman@utoronto.ca, was done via application of the conclusions drawn by Prof. Else Frankl Brunswick, subsequently Dr. Milton Rokeach. Their research focused on "open versus closed" belief systems, beginning with the NAZI period.

dr.b_helthi
___________
I'm sorry to say that I believe the organophosphate theory to be nonsense. Likewise with manganese. There are plenty of other reasons to minimize or avoid the use of these agents, but "causing" BSE is not one of them.

Best,

Neil Cashman
__________
Analytic Review:

"I'm sorry to say"

This introductory clause expresses disappointment. It tends to engender a sympathetic response in the reader. Thus the reader tends to think, "the expert would like to agree with me, but cannot, due to his superior knowledge of the facts. Basically, he is on my side." It predisposes belief - for the expert.

" - - that I believe the organophosphate theory to be nonsense." " that I believe" simply means that it is the position of the expert, unsubstantiated by evidence; it is a belief, no facts presented.

" to be nonsense." Nonsense is a strong word that connotes no logic. Thus it is illogical; illogic tends to characterize persons who think outside the `normal' boundaries of logic; it subtly implies psychosis. Thus the thinking, of people who concur with the organophosphate theory, tends toward psychosis.

"Likewise with manganese." A concise repetition of the above, but regarding manganese.

"There are plenty of other reasons to minimize or avoid the use of these agents,- - " In this phrase, the expert reflects knowledge of convincing evidence to ban the use of the chemicals in subject. Once again, he uses a statement that enjoins sympathy of the supporters of the position which the expert is refuting. Again, no supportive evidence or factual information; again, a belief without factual support.

" but `causing' BSE is not one of them." Once again, the expert presents a conclusive belief, with no supportive evidence. The subject of the conclusion is "BSE," and the ideation of the conclusion offers no clarification of the subject. The word, "causing" indicates that the chemicals in subject do not >precipitate< the condition, "BSE." The concept that the chemicals may be "associated" with BSE is left open. Yet, the idea that they are "causative" is adamantly struck down. The expert conclusively condones their further usage.

Discrepancy. The response contains one outstanding, internal refutation, which I would like to briefly address: "There are plenty of other reasons to minimize or avoid the use of these agents- - " This stated opinion is grounds for the expert to have presented ones response with a different focus, and in different phraseology. In so doing, the expert would have focused ones response on measures to curtail the use of the chemicals in subject - even though one "believes" they are not "causative agents" in BSE. However, the subject ideation is used to enjoin sympathy of the reader for the position of the expert, rather than to pursue the basic issue that the chemicals in subject should be banned.

Conclusion: the expert provides ones belief without supportive evidence, in a manner that refutes the logic ability of the person(s) who provided the question. He admits that the chemicals should be banned, yet supports their continued usage. The concise specificity, with which the expert presented ones response, reflects that the expert perceives oneself to be an ensconced member of the prevailing bureaucracy.

dr.b_helthi
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: "Neil Cashman"
From: croft woodruff
Subject: RE: Where are their studies to disprove the connection?
Cc:

One could get the same results inoculating any animal with pureed raw beef, or HIV infected blood (no one has ever seen the HIV virus all that has ever been published is an artists concept - in other words a figment of someone's imagination) or a venomous bite - you are going to get some kind of immune response adverse or otherwise. Incidentally, a flu shot will cause the recipient to register HIV positive for up to 90 days. I've run in to a few hospital workers who ran into that problem. When they were told of this effect they saved them selves from a regiment of DNA busting drugs that would have given them full blown AIDS and kill them. Re-testing proved they were negative. What goes on in a lab or test tube is not necessarily applicable to real world conditions. Because of biochemical individuality in different creatures and species there will be different results.

You can induce cancer in rats by injecting extracts of the herb comfrey alkaloids into their liver. That is not how comfrey has been used by people but that did not stop Health Canada form banning this herb for sale - in spite of the fact it has been used safely for thousands of years. I know of dairymen and horsemen who gave comfrey to their animals with no harm but much healthier animals.

I repeat - where are and what happened to the parent cows of the two BSE Holsteins traced to the Alberta farm? If we are to accept your claim that BSE is totally infectious then the parent animal had to be infected as well. Thus every cow in Canada should be destroyed and consumption of beef should be banned outright. That ain't going to happen!

But hey, your mind is made up. Public health denied mercury was a threat to infants but this neurotoxin has been removed from most of the childhood vaccines.

CW

At 03:06 PM 08/01/2004, you wrote:

BSE is an infectious disease, of that there is no doubt. Inoculation of mice in laboratory conditions (e.g., NO organophosphates) succumb to the disease, which can subsequently be passaged to other mice.

Neil Cashman
---------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 12:10:31 -0800
From: croft woodruff
Subject: RE: Where are their studies to disprove the connection?
To: Neil Cashman

Re: Neil Cashman's statement "The fact is that BSE is serially transmissible from cow to cow, cow to mouse, cow to human, cow to cat, etc indicates that organophosphates play no role in the disease." does not hold up when the evidence is demonstrating that cows - not exposed to eating feed laced with proteins from animal waste and entrails, chicken feathers and feces and who did not come from parents that had BSE - are still exposed to organo-phosphates and are coming down with BSE.

Where are and what happened to the parent cows of the two BSE Holsteins traced to the Alberta farm?

What about farmed elk, and deer that are treated with organo-phosphates and not fed the crap yet have their own version of BSE.? What about cats laced with organo-phosphate flea collars not to mention the cat food that may have traces of organo-phosphate residues? What about organo-phosphates in treatments for humans infected with head and body lice? Vegans get CJ - they could have been exposed to organophosphates from many sources - such as hugging their flea collared cat or dog or having been treated for lice. The treatment of choice for head lice by our researched challenged public health officials are organo-phosphates.

Organophosphate insecticides are powerful neuro-toxins. Dr. Holmes of the Renal Division at the University of Colorado in the 1950's established organophosphate insecticides shutdown the enzyme cholinesterase responsible for activating neuro-transmissions in the brain - talk about throwing a spanner into the works! - that is certan to disrupt the brain if the exposure is frequent as it invariably is. These toxins cause blood coagulation that can cut circulation to the brain, heart and other vital organs. Because of their effect on the brain they can cause drastic personality changes from depression to suicide not to mention anti social behavior.

No matter how minute the residues of organophosphate insecticides may be in the meat consuming contaminated meat over time will cause the residues to accumulate in the tissues. Such accumulation will have an effect akin to the death of a thousand cuts depending on how susceptible the organism may - genetics, nutritional status, other environmental and life style factors play a role. It must be noted that birds have zero tolerance of Malathion.

Some organophosphate insecticides have a fluorine ion added for an additional toxic kick. It has been established that fluorine is also a neuro toxin. Lead (also a neuro-toxin) and fluorine are a particular nasty combination when it comes to neuro-toxicity since they have a synergistic effect. No doubt that same could be said of other fluorine/mineral combinations.

Heavy metal burden can have a serious on the nervous system. See "Toxic metal syndrome," by Richard Casdorph MD, PhD and Morton Walker, DMD., AVERY PRESS.

Croft Woodruff
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Where are their studies to disprove the connection?
Date: 11:39 AM 1/7/2004 -0800
From:"croft woodruff"
To: "Chris Gupta"

Why are governments, toxicologists and agriculture scientists ignoring or dismissing the possible connection of BSE - mad cow disease - with organophosphate insecticide use as "nonsense"?

The organophosphate insecticides are powerful neuro-toxins - brain poisons - that cattlemen slather along the spines of their animals to deal with warble fly, ticks and other parasites. The recycled animal protein, ground up chicken feathers, feces and entrails added to cattle feed - and euphemistically referred to as a high protein supplement - advocated by necromancers passing as university agricultural scientists - contain minerals such as manganese (chickens are given permanganate of potash) and copper are found in high amounts in animal waste products. The organophosphate insecticides are enzyme disrupters while manganese and copper are important enzyme activators.

Britain is still having outbreaks of BSE. Several generations of cattle have been born since the United Kingdom banned the addition of animal parts and waste to cattle feed. The use and overuse of organophosphate insecticides on cattle and humans (i.e., malathione used as anti head lice treatment could also explain why human vegans get CJ) - still goes on in the U.K. as it does elsewhere.

Where are all the studies - published in peer reviewed journals - to disprove the connection between BSE - mad cow disease - with organophosphate insecticide use? They simply do not exist. The manufactures of organophosphate insecticides and governments are potentially at risk to incur billions of dollars in damage suits from farmers and CJ victims. This may explain why politicians, bureaucrats government and agricultural scientists are so quick to dismiss a possible connection. What one does not look for one will not find. There are thousands of downers occurring in North America every day. Rather than pay for a $160 to $200 autopsy a farmer is more likely to send it to a rendering plant or, in the words of Alberta Premier Ralph Klein, "Shoot it, shovel it and shut up about it!"

Croft Woodruff
---------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 09:55:57 -0800
From: croft woodruff
Subject: manganese additive no longer in Chevron's gasolines
To: chrisgupta@alumni.uwaterloo.ca

Chris:

Chevron Canada has notified its customers that its gasolines in all 4 octaines (87, 89, 91, 94) sold only in British Columbia's lower mainland west of Hope and on Vancouver Island are free of the manganese antiknock additive MMT. Reason?: Automobile manufacturers are warning their customers to use MMT free gasolines in order to maintain the integrity of their autos' emission controls. Those east and north of the lower mainland still have to put up with crap.

Croft

posted by Chris Gupta on Friday January 9 2004
updated on Saturday September 24 2005

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Readers' Comments

dear chris....There seems to be a mistake somewhere, but, anyhow I was told I had a email on your site, which, by the way, is a very valuable place and I would like to subscribe to it. B ut, first, if a communique did get printed, let me first apologize about all the misspellings....I know that I never meant it for public consumption or I would learn to use spellcheck in that format. Perhaps you would let me know about this: it was about the contra costa superior court but desewrved to be told better....Thank you...Evelyn

Posted by: evelyn munn on December 18, 2004 10:47 PM

http://www.markpurdey.com/science_the_origins_of_bse.htm

Posted by: David Steadler on December 23, 2008 01:47 AM


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